Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

Welcome to the language section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

See also:

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

March 18

Russian book translation

Hello, recently I've stumbled upon a book while trying to find sources for my new article. The problem? It's in Russian. Would anyone kindly translate this book for me? It's over 300 pages long though. If you can't do it all, can you translate the pages 211–221 for me? Here's a digital link to the book. The book cover and others are also counted as pages, so page 211 in the actual book is page 299 in the link. RandomGuy3114 (talk) 10:11, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Google Images seems to do a reasonably good job of recognising and translating the text. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:00, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

yes i will translate whole book for you

astaghfirullah 130.74.58.79 (talk) 14:46, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Sacheus !Gonteb

How is this surname real? NotAGenious (talk) 05:47, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

The ! is a letter used in some south African "click" languages. See Exclamation_mark#Phonetics. Rojomoke (talk) 06:29, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, you can hear the name "Sacheus !Gonteb" spoken in this NBC clip, for example. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:11, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Something I’ve been wondering about since 1980: how are they able to do the click almost simultaneously with the consonant that follows? Viriditas (talk) 22:57, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Never mind, I just spent ten minutes teaching myself to do it. I think I’ll learn a few sentences in Khoisan just to freak people out. Viriditas (talk) 23:42, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

There’s a song Miriam Makeba performed in the sixties which was widely known as “the click song” thanks to its frequent clicks in the lyrics. It appears on one of Harry Belafonte’s Carnegie Hall albums, I forget which. D A Hosek (talk) 17:36, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

I have added a note to the article to that effect. Bazza 7 (talk) 22:02, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

you're finnish, you're on thin ice yourself 130.74.58.77 (talk) 19:44, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

March 19

Antonio, Tono, Toni, Tony

I am trying to write about Tono Zancanaro, but this is maddening because his name appears as Antonio, Tono, Toni, and Tony, with no rhyme or reason. For example, as one of the award winners for etching at the 26th Venice Biennale, he is listed as "Toni Zancanaro", but on a gallery page describing this award, he is listed as both Antonio and Tono, not Toni.[1] Any idea what is going on here and why there are so many different variations on his first name? Note, the source for the Venice Biennale award is The History of the Venice Biennal 1895-2007 by Enzo Di Martino, and he is listed there on p. 132 as "Toni". Viriditas (talk) 23:13, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

When I google e.g. for zancanaro pittore in Italian, the results are overwhelmingly using Tono or Antonio, at least on the first pages I haven't found the other examples. Hence it suggests that Antonio is his formal/passport name and Tono is the Hypocorism he usually went by.

Toni and Tony could be typos (in particular Toni with the i being next to the o on most keyboards); or probably more likely, they are well-meant but wrong attempts at "correction" as, at least in the English-speaking world, Tony is the common hypocorism of Anthony (Toni is the common hypocorism of Anton in German and probably a couple of other languagues too). -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 09:35, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks for checking. I forgot to mention that there is one other element to this story that I have not yet pursued. There is an article that mentions how he came by the name "Tono". I can't remember the story offhand, but IIRC, it may have had something to do with a speech impediment by a family member who couldn't pronounce his name. I will have to revisit the material to know for sure. Viriditas (talk) 09:58, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Cured by a patent medicine perhaps? DuncanHill (talk) 00:25, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

March 20

Abbrev.

I recently came across, in an Australian newspaper of the 1920s, an honorific abbreviated Sr.: "Sister" made no sense, nor did "Senior" as a prefix, particularly as it referred to the younger of father-and-son politicians. Turned out to mean "Senator". Here's the Trove query that brought it to light. I'd never come across it before, and it's not in my Macquarie dictionary, but 1,000 Trove hits is not to be sneezed at. Taking a few more at random [Senators (Edward) Millen and (George) Pearce] seems to implicate one or two newspapers as the chief culprits, but is this seen in other countries that have a Senate? Doug butler (talk) 17:47, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, I've been avidly following Australian politics, parliaments and machinery of government for all my adult life, and I've never seen or heard of this abbreviation until now. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:46, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

March 23

"Near" = adjective or preposition

The article Degrees of comparison of adjectives and adverbs says:

The adjective near may be found in the superlative with omission of the preposition to after it, as in Find the restaurant nearest your house (instead of Find the restaurant nearest to your house). Joan Maling (1983) shows that near is best analysed as an adjective with which the use of to is optional, rather than a preposition.

Is nearest really an adjective and not a preposition?? (It looks like a preposition that takes the object house and the full phrase nearest your house is an adjective phrase the modifies the noun restaurant. Georgia guy (talk) 15:49, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

A problem is that the article seems nowhere to indicate what "Joan Maling (1983)" might be (presumably it's the discussion of near on pp. 270–271 of this). I personally don't find Maling's argument particularly persuasive—admittedly, I haven't read the whole paper, from a disinclination to turning my head sideways for long—since I see no reason why the word can't function as a preposition in some constructions and as an adjective in others, but you may. Deor (talk) 16:57, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

To the above I'll add that deleting from the article the subsection you quoted wouldn't, in any way, be a great loss. Deor (talk) 17:10, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

Wiktionary lists nearest as both an adjective and a preposition. This seems to me by far the simplest. Compare Dutch richting for a case in which a noun also became a preposition, now occupying two grammatical categories. Maling's argument, inasmuch as I understand it, appears to be based on the tacit assumption that it is either one or the other, and since it is clearly not a preposition in the nearest restaurant, it is not a preposition in other contexts either. I'm probably misinterpreting the argument, because I can hardly believe such a blooper would have gone unnoticed by the reviewers.  ​‑‑Lambiam 23:09, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

Here's what EO has to say about "near":[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:33, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

It’s a dessert topping and a floor wax, so to speak. A lot of prepositions can function as not only prepositions but also as adjectives (a less ambiguous example with near would be the phrase “places near and far” where “near” and “far” are both adjectives) and adverbs (“The train is coming near”). In Spanish, a lot of what we think of as prepositions are exclusively adverbs unless suffixed with one of the very short list of “real” prepositions, so “cerca” would be an adjective or adverb and to use it as a prepositional phrase you would have to write “cerca de.” D A Hosek (talk) 16:41, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

March 24

long mid vowel

Which varieties of English pronounce face as /fɛːs/ or /fɛǝs/ ? —Tamfang (talk) 00:08, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

I first thought about Scots varieties, but there I think it's more commonly pronounced /feːs/. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:17, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

those, after Hitchens, of Beirut, Belgrade, Belfast, Bombay, Baghdad, and I haven't even got through the Bs 130.74.58.43 (talk) 15:10, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

According to Wiktionary, the Standard Southern British pronunciation is /fɛjs/.  ​‑‑Lambiam 23:30, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

Okay, I can eliminate SSBE from my inquiries —Tamfang (talk) 21:14, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

March 25

I have hunger

While learning Czech, I was a bit surprised to discover that the phrase, “I’m hungry” is “Mam hlad” (literally I have hunger). I knew that in Spanish the phrase is “Tengo hambre” (again, literally I have hunger). My son who’s learning French said that it’s the same in French (“J’ai fam”) and a bit of digging shows that it’s the same in many other European languages (German: “Ich habe Hunger”, Dutch: “Ik heb honger”, Italian: “Ho fame”) although Latin and Greek have verbs specifically to express hunger esurio and πεινάω, but a bit more digging shows that I’m cold in Latin is “frigidus sum” (I am cold) and not “tengo frio” (I have cold—Spanish) (Czech renders this is as “je mi zima” (It’s winter to me)).

So now, I’m wondering about the origin of the use of “to have” to express a state of being and how English came to differ from most of its closely related languages. Is this a Latin influence and if so, how did “to have” manage to become standard in not only Romance languages but also Germanic and Slavic languages? D A Hosek (talk) 16:35, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

All North Germanic languages commonly use phrases like "I'm hungry", I believe. German hungrig and Dutch hongerig exist, but are relatively rare. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:53, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

In Italian you can say sono affamato but it's likely to be taken as a different sort of hunger, which the kids today seem to be calling "thirst". --Trovatore (talk) 20:57, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

An alternative, possibly older and now near-obsolete alternative would simply be "I hunger."

English, having formed from and assimilated elements of various Eurpean languages through migrations and invasions, has always had multiple ways of saying the same thing, sometimes regionally endemic and sometimes competing in parallel, and 'fashions' for them may come and go, and sometimes return again. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.64.108 (talk) 06:18, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

This is not the only way of saying things that seems to have mysteriously disappeared in English. Another one that strikes me is introducing yourself by name. The Germanic languages would normally have an active voice verb expression: Ich heiße Paul (German), Jag heter Pål (Swedish). However, in English one has to use the My name is Paul workaround. (Which exists in the other Germanic languages too, e.g. Mein Name ist Paul). The Romance languages use reflexive verbs, Je m'appelle Paul / Me llamo Pablo / Mi chiamo Paolo. I guess that can work in English too (I call myself Paul) but would sound much more natural in the passive voice (I'm called Paul) - however, why did English not keep the active voice wording analogous to heißen/heter? I guess it's about "fashions" as the previous poster stated. But then of course English has its quite simplistic way of saying it: I'm Paul. Which sounds better in English than the German Ich bin (der) Paul. -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 08:34, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

How is "my name is" a workaround? Seems much more straightforward to me. The expressions I see in other languages translate to "I am called" or "I call myself", but I am called many things besides my name and I usually call myself me/myself/I. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:57, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

As Paul sang, "Her name was McGill / And she called herself Lil / But everyone knew her as Nancy..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:31, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

The German and Swedish expressions aren't really the same as "I am called" or "I call myself". In terms of formality I see them at the same level as "My name is", and I would expect to hear their real name (Of course one might still hear "Ich heiße Tom" when their passport name is Thomas but that could be the same with "My name is Tom" in English. -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 08:51, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

In German one can say mich hungert ^[3][4][5] as well as mich dünkt (it seems to me), an archaic construction also surviving in English methinks.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:23, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Indeed they would sound very archaic to a German; on the other Hand, related to Wakuran's post, the direct equivalent of I'm hungry, ich bin hungrig, is quite commonly used in everydoy language and I couldn't be sure right away which of the two would be more common, Ich bin hungrig or Ich habe Hunger. -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 10:42, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Google Ngram Viewer suggests that, early on, Ich bin hungrig was slightly more popular than Ich habe Hunger up until around 1916. Ever since then, Ich habe Hunger has been steadily pulling away. Of course this may only be in a literary context, I have no clue how the two compare in real life conversation. GalacticShoe (talk) 13:11, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

That shift over time could well be accurate. Thinking about it, "Ich habe Hunger" might sound a little more common and "Ich bin hungrig" slightly more distinguished (which could be correlated with somewhat "older" ways of expressing things). --79.91.113.116 (talk) 14:53, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Actually, if you look at the actual search results for "ich bin hungrig" in that Google Ngram search, you'll find that virtually all the hits for the adjectival construction in the older (19th-century) part of the corpus are biblical quotations of Mt 25:35 ("Ich bin hungrig gewesen, und ihr habt mich gespeiset") in the Martin Luther translation. The phrase hardly ever occurs in any other context. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:02, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Native German here: "hungrig" is everything but rare. The phrases "Ich habe Hunger", "Ich bin hungrig" and "Ich hungere" exists, while the latter has a somewhat stronger meaning, not quite as stark as "Ich verhungere" (I'm starving). I use both first phrases regularly in daily speech. "Ich habe Hunger" is more informal, so I would use it more with family an friends, while "Ich bin hungrig" is more suitable for a formal context, while it can be used with friends as well. 178.208.99.186 (talk) 11:47, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

In Middle English the common way was to say me hungreth, but this construction fell into disuse by the end of the 15th century, to be replaced by i hungre. In modern English we have I hunger, but today the verb is mainly used in a figurative sense (as in Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness). The oldest use of to be hungry I found is from 1535.^[6] When the 1769 KJV was published, however, to hunger was (next to to be hungry) still a common way to express the literal sense (And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered., Luke 4:2; And if any man hunger, let him eat at home, 1 Cor. 11:34; Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink, Rom. 12:20). Other ways found in the KJV: to be consumed with hunger (Ezek. 34:29), to suffer hunger (Ps. 34:10; Prov. 19:15), and, yes, also to have hunger (Jer. 42:14). So the switch from to hunger to to be hungry was not complete yet by 1769.  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:43, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Jesus on the cross said "I thirst", or at least that's how it was translated, as I doubt He said it in English. Meanwhile, in Spanish, it's possible to say estoy hambriento for "I am hungry", but I don't think that's very common usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:54, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

John 19:28 has διψῶ, but I don't think the poor bloke spoke Greek either. Quite a few translations have "I am thirsty".  ​‑‑Lambiam 23:12, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

"Estoy hambriento", while grammatical and understandable, is often a calque from English.

--Error (talk) 00:19, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Is "hambriento" really an adjective here? To me it seems more as a participle, akin to "I am hungering" (which sounds rather forced in English). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:01, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

The Real Academia website calls it an adjective.[7] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:15, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

That's right. I don't think there is one verb for "to hunger".

--Error (talk) 22:12, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

Apparently "hambrear" exists, but is rare. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:44, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

Romanian has "Mi-e foame" and "Mi-e frig", "There is hunger/cold to me". The Balkan sprachbund?

--Error (talk) 00:19, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Not Greek (πεινάω/διψάω), and also not Turkish (açım, susadım). Another idiomatic expression in Turkish: karnım aç, "my belly is hungry". While one can also say boğazım susadı, "my throat is thirsty", this is not common.  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:10, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

In Mandarin it is literally the same: 我肚子饿了 (wǒ dùzi è le), my belly is hungry. -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 13:41, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Gaelic IPA

I'm trying to add a pronunciation guide for the Scottish Gaelic place-name Rubha Robhanais. The pronunciation is given in Richard Cox's Settlement Names of Lewis as [ˌɍu ˈɾo-əˌniʃ]. I've never seen the first character used in IPA before. Does anyone know what it means and how it should be represented on Wikipedia? Zacwill (talk) 20:25, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

I would have guessed it was a trilled/rolled r, but I'd have been wrong: that is apparently <r> or [r] – unless the rarer ˌɍ distinguishes the subtly different Scottish rolled r from the Italianate trilled r. However, I'm sure more philologically advanced Wikipedians will be able to enlighten us.

Of course, We have an article, but it doesn't seem to be helpful; nor does R. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.64.108 (talk) 06:31, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Zacwill: My best guess, after reading pages 51–53 of that pdf and page 126 of Magne Oftedal's The Gaelic of Leurbost is that the "ɍ" character refers to an alveolar trill that is velarized, which would be rendered something like /rˠ/. PrinceTortoise (he/him • poke) 06:38, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

This seems correct; compare:

• Settlement Names: #33 Baile Geàrr — [ˌb̥alə ˈɡ̊ʲɑːɍ]^[8]
• Wiktionary: ceàrr — Pronunciation /kʲʰaːrˠ/ – /kʲʰɛːrˠ/ – [kʲʰæːrˠ]

 ​‑‑Lambiam 09:58, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. That paper is using the character ⟨ɍ⟩ as a stand-in for the correct IPA character ⟨r̴⟩, which can be hard to read. Velarization can be denoted in the IPA either by a superscript gamma (ˠ) after the affected symbol or by a swung dash/tilde through it, so ⟨r̴⟩ and ⟨rˠ⟩ are equivalent. In practice, however, ⟨ɫ⟩ is the only letter where the superimposed tilde is at all common. Most linguists use the superscript gamma for all other consonants just to make texts easier to read. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:59, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Thanks all – I've now added the [ˌrˠu ˈɾo-əˌniʃ] pronunciation. Zacwill (talk) 17:56, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

March 28

“Tomorrow will be the same as today”

Hi,

I tripped over this quote in a cognitive science paper ([9]):

When sensory inputs are constant, a well-tuned perceptual prediction system will adhere to the old adage about weather forecasting – “tomorrow will be the same as today” – and will be correct in this prediction.

What they're trying to say is clear enough, but calling the quote an "adage about weather forecasting" feels a bit off. Do you recognise it as an adage, or maybe part of one?

Thanks!

- 2A02:560:4DA3:CC00:7C32:C059:4EDE:A463 (talk) 14:46, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

In searching for the expression, I found a teacher's guide for an environment curriculum saying, "In predicting weather, predicting that tomorrow will be the same as today is known as a persistence forecast, and it is generally correct more than half the time." By searching Google Books for the expression plus the word persistence, I found a bunch of things about weather forecasting that contain the expression and explain ways of refining a prediction beyond the persistence approach, such as this. So it does appear that it's an "adage" familiar in the weather-forecasting community. Deor (talk) 16:06, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Meteorology's null hypothesis, basically. That makes plenty of sense. Thanks!

- 2A02:560:4DA3:CC00:7C32:C059:4EDE:A463 (talk) 20:23, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

S!

S! is apparently used as a contraction of the word Saint in this map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/COCHRANE%281825%29_p1.038_THE_EASTERN_PART_OF_SIBERIA.jpg
You can find it in the Kamchatka peninsula (S! Peter & S! Pauls). It is the first time I see a shortening like this. Do you have any information about it? Thank you! 195.62.160.60 (talk) 15:19, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

That may be S^t with a full stop under the t rather than following the abbreviation. Deor (talk) 15:36, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's not S! but S^ṭ, using a superscript "t" with a dot underneath as to signify St. for "saint". Bazza 7 (talk) 15:37, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Pronunciation of 0 (zero)

There are a few cases where the number 0 is routinely pronounced as "oh", as if it were the letter O. Phone numbers and postal codes are the most obvious examples: .... 4036 is usually said "four oh three six". Even in those cases, we might say "zero" rather than "oh" if we want to ensure it's not misheard as "eight".

But there's a new one creeping in: "Carlton is now oh and 3 for the first time since 2019". This means that Carlton has lost the first 3 matches of the season and its running tally is 0-3. I've heard this a few times now.

Where else do we ever refer to the single number 0 as oh? 1 minus 1 = oh? Nope. Even in other sporting results, such as the current score in a particular match, it's "13-nil", never "13-oh".

Or am I just not keeping up with long-overdue "improvements" of our glorious language?-- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:23, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

I think this "oh" is common in more contexts than you're admitting, Jack. In the Who's song "905", the lyrics are "My name is nine-oh-five ...". (There used to be a chain of liquor stores in my area with the same name—from the address of the original location, as I recall—and it was always called nine-oh-five.) The obsolete Boeing aircraft was always a seven-oh-seven. James Bond is Agent Double-oh-seven, not nought-nought-seven or zero-zero-seven. And here in the United States all the baseball sportscasters, in addition to usages like "oh and three" or "seven and oh" for a team's record, also use "oh and two" and "three and oh" for balls-and-strikes counts and "He was oh for four today" if a batter has no hits in four at-bats. It seems rather common to me and probably based on whatever is euphonious and understandable in the context. Deor (talk) 20:03, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

The article itself doesn't go into much detail, but the talk page of our article OO gauge has a couple of interesting threads relating to this: see Talk:OO gauge#Double Oh or Double Zero? and Talk:OO gauge#'Pronunciation' of OO and 00. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 20:06, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Relating to shotgun shells, 00-gauge is "double-aught" --136.56.165.118 (talk) 00:03, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

Deor, I'm just waiting for the day when some commentator says "They've won oh games so far this season". That would be "euphonious and understandable in the context", and since anything is fair game these days, it's only a matter of time now. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:37, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

Presumably, the main reason the number 0 isn't pronounced "oh" when it's on its own is to avoid confusion - with the word "oh" or the letter O or whatever. The presence of other numbers lessens this risk sufficiently that the use is deemed unproblematic. Extending this to multi-number phrases with a pattern like "[number] [conjunction] [number]" makes sense to me.

How about in arithmetic expressions? "One plus oh equals one", "two minus two equals oh"? Probably not, that could be the letter used as a variable...

- 2A02:560:4DA3:CC00:7C32:C059:4EDE:A463 (talk) 20:41, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Are house numbers in English-speaking world read as respective cardinal numbers such as number 12288 as "twelve thousand two-hundred eighty-eight" like cardinal 12,288? Or are they read just like phone numbers? --40bus (talk) 21:44, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, I'd say they're conceptually numbers, not strings of digits like phone "numbers". But in practice, they're not necessarily prounounced quite the same way as regular numbers, but use the more "streamlined" patterns that are also used for years. So "1600" would be "sixteen hundred" rather than either "one six double oh" or "one thousand six hundred", "1666" would be "sixteen sixty-six", and so forth.

- 2A02:560:4DA3:CC00:7C32:C059:4EDE:A463 (talk) 22:06, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

As for the UK: good question! It is so rare to have street numbers greater than three digits that I don't think there is an "official" line. The highest house number in the UK is 2679 Stratford Road, Hockley Heath: the very last numbered house in the West Midlands before you cross the county boundary into Warwickshire. (Stratford Road (i.e. Stratford-upon-Avon) is the old A34, now the A3400, which is continuously named as such all the way from the Warwickshire boundary to The Middleway, Birmingham's inner ring road, and is built up with houses, shops etc. the whole way. It is unusual for an urban road to bear the same name for such a long distance, hence the rarity of high house numbers.) At a guess, I would think it would be spoken as "two-six-seven-nine Stratford Road". Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 22:28, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

But British highway numbers commonly include four digits, like the B1408 in Colchester for a random example, and I believe that would be proncouned with "fourteen oh eight" just as we North Americans would pronounce 1408 in a street address or apartment number. --142.112.221.85 (talk) 02:14, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

I wouldn't say "B fourteen oh eight". I normally speak each digit, except for:

• two-digit numbers ("A sixty-five")
• three-digit numbers ending in 00 ("A five hundred") and optionally those ending in 0 ("A six five oh" or "A six fifty")
• four-digit numbers ending in two or three zeros ("A one thousand", "A sixty-one hundred") but not normally those ending in one zero ("B three one four oh").

When I've talked to others about this, people have told me that they use forms like that for some roads that are local to them, particularly if they start "10" (eg "A ten eighty-four") or end with a zero ("B sixty-three forty") ColinFine (talk) 13:28, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

Looks like the general lesson here is that it doesn't take many digits til one gets to the point where there are so many options, and where the way speakers, usually subconsciously, pick one of them gets so complicated, involving competing preferences at various levels, that making firm predictions about how a particular numeric sequence is going to be pronounced by a particular speaker gets borderline impossible.

- 2A02:560:4D04:4E00:61FC:10C6:DEF1:AD8F (talk) 15:48, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

• Well, as usual, there's more to this than meets the O. Er, I. Er .. Thanks, all. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:17, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

Resolved

Not on your Nellie

What is the origin of the idiom "Not on your Nellie"? Is it used outside UK? Thank you. 2A00:23C7:528:1F00:F49F:6AD7:7C4C:55A1 (talk) 19:52, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

The very interesting Word Histories site (a blog, but it cites its sources very well) has an article here which goes into detail about the phrase. Essentially it has 1940s rhyming slang origins, and is also used in Australia. (I'm British and am only familiar with its use here. I admit to using the phrase quite regularly myself!) Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 20:04, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

It raises the question, who was Nellie Duff?  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:47, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

She was a member of the Baptist Church & a native of Owsley Co., Ky.. DuncanHill (talk) 19:05, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

Really? So not Australian at all then? 2A00:23C7:52F:8B00:6420:B115:3070:8013 (talk) 21:30, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

It was a joke. She was just the first (of several) Nellie Duffs I found. I doubt very much there was a real Nelly Duff intended in the phrase. DuncanHill (talk) 21:46, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

I'm familiar with it up here in the Great White North, but then I'm an old geezer who watches a lot of old movies, including British ones. I don't recall ever hearing it "in the wild". Clarityfiend (talk) 23:14, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

And what about my tintype? —Tamfang (talk) 21:18, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

March 30

Ätsch, Pustekuchen, Madita! - Can someone please translate these lyrics into English?

Listen to this childhood tune: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IGc9LgsXxO0

I keep listening to it over and over, but I don't understand German, even when I've taken some German courses on DuoLingo.

So what do the lyrics sing in English? And is there an English-language track of this same song uploaded elsewhere on YouTube, SoundCloud or anywhere else?

Also, is this really part of a Pippi Longstocking soundtrack? Or a soundtrack from another one of Astrid Lindgren's intellectual properties? If it's not from specifically the Pippi franchise, why does the video in the link show a still cartoon drawing of Pippi, and her sidekicks Tommy & Annika? --2600:8803:1D13:7100:A152:3EC2:C68C:9D84 (talk) 11:30, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

Someone asked the same thing on Reddit a few months ago and got a response: [10] --Viennese Waltz 11:40, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

Well, how accurate is tinkst3r's (the respondent's) translation? --2600:8803:1D13:7100:A152:3EC2:C68C:9D84 (talk) 12:11, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

de:Madita (Fernsehserie) provides some context, does that help?

- 2A02:560:4D04:4E00:392E:8922:FB09:5621 (talk) 12:26, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

Oh well, that's a kind of vocabulary difficult to find in translation dictionaries. Ätsch is a taunt word, it's not the kind of English vocabulary I'd be familiar with but from what i can see "neener" could fit (a typical situation: You expected to beat/trick me but I got ahead of your game and now you're the loser). And for "Pustekuchen" - it's also somewhat taunting in the sense of "we/you were expecting something but the outcome is absolutely zero". Ätsch would typically be used by children, while "Pustekuchen" could be used sarcastically by adults. -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 14:15, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

The English Wiktionary has the longer form ätschibätschi, said to be an extended form of ätsch and defined as: "(childish or humorous) Used to taunt someone and express joy over their misfortune, especially if it is the speaker's doing or to their advantage; na-na na-na boo-boo".

It defines Pustekuchen! as "(colloquial) no way!, not gonna happen!, forget about it!"

The English Wiktionary has no entry for Madita, but the German Wiktionary defines Madita as a female given name, originally introduced by the translator of Astrid Lindgren's novel Madicken (1960), whose Swedish title is the Swedish nickname of the (fictional) main character, Margareta Engström, reappearing in later books. The TV series is after the books.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:06, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

Presumably a translation of the taunt "Pilutta dig!" from the original Swedish books. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:41, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, it's basically a direct adaptation of the Swedish original; [11], [12] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:39, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

The Swedish lyrics might be found here; [13]. "Pilutta dig" ("Pilutt on you") is a made up nyah-nyah taunt, but apart from that, the lyrics aren't more complex than a web translator could handle. (My German is a bit passive, and I have trouble following spoken German without written out German subtitles.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:53, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

This upbeat Iraqi Arabic military song - can someone please translate the title & lyrics?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l3bcugvsLDg - What does the title say in English, and what do the lyrics sing in English?

When I asked for an upbeat war song analogous to the Waterloo ABBA song about the battle from the Napoleonic War, but for any of Iraq's recent wars, a user in the r/Iraq subreddit pasted the link to this song. It was so catchy, I added it to a playlist. Do you think the Iraqi song linked in this thread would be analogous to ABBA's Waterloo? Or what song is it analogous to? --2600:8803:1D13:7100:A152:3EC2:C68C:9D84 (talk) 16:42, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

Google Translate turns the caption into "Republican Guard Anthem -- From the Heritage of Saddam's Qadisiyah". (The cryptic name "Saddam's Qadisiyah" was a propaganda name for the Iran–Iraq War, trying to draw on the heroic repute of the historical battle of al-Qadisiyyah.)  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:33, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

March 31

Is there a word for that?

What's the word for someone who does productive things because they're bored? TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 00:28, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

The idea of "prodcrastination" might come close to what you're looking for. It refers to engaging in semi-productive activities while avoiding main tasks, often due to boredom or procrastination. --136.56.165.118 (talk) 01:36, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

飛 stroke order in Japanese

Is there a particular reason why, in Japanese, the vertical stroke in 飛 is written before the throw and vertical-throw? Typical Japanese stroke order "rules"/patterns would suggest that the latter two be written before the vertical, and indeed the component kanji 升 these strokes form is written with such a stroke order as is the whole character in Chinese. I'm far from an expert in this area, but insofar as I have studied most of the jōyō kanji I am yet to encounter/cannot recall another case in which any section of a character is written right-to-left like this. Are there any other such cases? Are there examples in Chinese stroke order, and/or are there other Han characters where only the Japanese stroke order does this? (fugues) (talk) 10:44, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

Why is the IPA vowel chart a half trapezoid?

Why is the IPA vowel chart a weird half-trapezoid shape with low/open front not going as far left as high/close front? Primal Groudon (talk) 14:25, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

Courtesy link: Vowel diagram#IPA vowel diagram with added material. As I understand it (possibly wrongly), this partly arises from the actual anatomy of the mouth cavity, with the tongue (whose positions greatly effect the vowels being made) being able to reach positions further apart at the cavity's top than at its bottom.

Hopefully a real linguist will confirm or refute this. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.64.108 (talk) 94.2.64.108 (talk) 15:40, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

For the hell of it: previous thread. Deor (talk) 23:42, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

Adjective corresponding to "integrity"

In English, abstract nouns tend to be paired with adjectives using the same root: competence/competent, clarity/clear, persuasiveness/persuasive, objectivity/objective, and so on. What is the adjective paired with "integrity" (using the same root)? ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 18:21, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

There is integrous, but it's very rare. See [14]. --Viennese Waltz 18:22, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

Too rare to be included in Merriam-Webster. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 18:36, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

The common adjective from that root is integral but it's meaning doesn't really fit in modern usage. I'm pretty sure this is just a case of ordinary semantic drift. Eluchil404 (talk) 20:52, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm a very integral person. ;) ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 22:00, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

Next to integrous, Wiktionary also gives integrious and integritous. In Latin, integer is an adjective, literally meaning "untouched", a literal meaning it shares with intactus, but it more commonly means "whole". Figuratively, it can mean "honest", "not corrupt", "having integrity". The latter figurative meaning is the meaning of the identical Dutch adjective integer, first attested in 1873, either a backformation from the noun integriteit, or a learned loan directly from Latin.  ​‑‑Lambiam 23:33, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

The adjective integer with that meaning exists in German too. Not to forget the Romance languages, like intègre in French and integro in Spanish. Only in English it seems to have drifted away. -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 07:19, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

The word "integral" is pronounced differently depending on whether it's an adjective (in-TEG-ral) or a noun (IN-te-gral). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:32, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

It's just weird that English doesn't have a commonly used word for that concept. I can't think of a single other case. I somewhat often need that word and have to use several words instead. Offensive to my goal of concision. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 12:05, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

April 1

Dates

In English, are months in dates ever read as their ordinals, such as today's date the first the fourth? In Finnish, it can be read as ensimmäinen neljättä along with ensimmäinen huhtikuuta. --40bus (talk) 07:33, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

I do not believe so, unless you get into bulky expressions like the first day of the fourth month. In German the answer would be yes (Erster Vierter Zweitausendfünfundzwanzig) but I am not aware whether this is the case in other languages. -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 08:01, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

You do hear this occasionally (although always with "of" between them: your example of simply "the first the fourth" does not sound like English to me), but I think mostly when the year is also included, e.g. when stating a date of birth ("the first of the fourth, sixty-three"). This is in British English; in American English I'm not sure whether it works because dates (other than 7th July) are generally spoken as "April first" rather than "the first of April", and I can't imagine anyone specifying today's date as "fourth first". Proteus (Talk) 08:51, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

I've never heard that usage in America. The closest I can think of would be someone making a joke about the Firth of Forth, or any reference to the Fifth Third Bank. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:14, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

At the eleventh hour on the eleventh day of the eleventh month – we will remember them. DuncanHill (talk) 11:33, 1 April 2025 (UTC)